8 Million Ways to Happiness (Wisdom from the Heart of Japan) with Hiroko Yoda

Welcome to the Show

Jason: Hey, Jason here with ZeroToTravel.com. Welcome to the show. Thanks for hanging out, letting me bring a little travel into your ears today. This, of course, is the show to help you travel the world on your terms. And as you heard at the top, our guest today is Hiroko Yoda, author of 8 Million Ways to Happiness: Wisdom for Inspiration and Healing from the Heart of Japan. You can find out more about her work at HirokoYoda.com, which we’ll link up to in the show notes.

We’re covering a lot of themes that always fascinate me, and getting to slip into a completely different worldview, to look at things through a Japanese lens. We talk about some of the history and some of the duality there, that idea of a society being fueled by non-spiritual spirituality, in a sense, and happiness. What does that even mean, and how can happiness be a perspective? Radical inclusivity. These are some of the things we talk about. Of course, advice for travelers visiting Japan. How can we immerse ourselves in a way that allows us to experience some of the happenings around these shrines that you’ll come across, and what to see in Tokyo, and so much more happening in this one. I know you’re going to love it.

Don’t forget, we have a newsletter, by the way. ZeroToTravel.com/newsletter. You can sign up over there. And stick around on the back end. I’ll leave you with a quote to wrap it up, of course. And a concept that, well, I’m fascinated with the idea of duality, and this is a concept that I heard about for parenting, but I think it applies to a lot of things for us as individuals and can really help you get through a challenging time. Maybe if you’re stuck in a bit of confusion, this is something I like to remind myself of. So I’ll leave you with that on the back end. For now, please enjoy my conversation with Hiroko Yoda. Thanks for listening, and I’ll see you on the other side, my friend.

Life as an International Couple

Jason: Hiroko Yoda, welcome.

Hiroko: Thank you, thank you. Just back to Japan from America.

Jason: How was your trip?

Hiroko: From the East Coast, yes. Yeah, it’s great. My husband is American, so spending holiday time with the in-laws. But also my book, 8 Million Ways to Happiness, got published in America December 30th, and January 1st in England. So I stayed there so that I could work with the timing to promote my book. So it was great. It was good.

Jason: That’s great. Yeah, congratulations. No small feat to write a book. Of course, we’re going to talk about it today, 8 Million Ways to Happiness: Wisdom for Inspiration and Healing from the Heart of Japan, which is quite the project, actually. I’m just like, wow, how long does it take to write a book like this? I actually haven’t finished it, and that’s a compliment, because when I read a chapter, there’s a bunch of stuff to chew on. I have to process it all.

Anyway, it’s interesting. I am married to a Norwegian, and so we go back to visit the in-laws and things like that. It’s nice to have, I’m sure for you, the dual business and pleasure trip thing. How is it for you to be an international couple? How has that been? How long have you guys been married?

Hiroko: Wow. Okay. That question is just such a curveball. We’ve been married, what? 27 years.

Jason: Wow.

Hiroko: Yeah. It’s quite a journey. It’s an exciting journey, because there has been a lot to learn between East and West. The language: I speak English, my American husband speaks Japanese, and we both lived in America and are now based in Tokyo. And so everything is basically half and half. Or maybe 100%, 100%. But it’s been great. And also, both of us know what the strengths are and the weaknesses are. Like language. I’m a native Japanese speaker, but he’s not a native Japanese speaker. And I’m not native in English, but he is the native English speaker. That kind of stuff. It’s basically compromising with each other and helping each other. And so it’s been great.

Jason: Yeah, it’s interesting, because I’m very familiar with that dynamic, being an international couple. And I can tell my wife sometimes, we speak English together, and sometimes I think she misses being able to just express herself in Norwegian to me. And I can understand all of that, but I can’t communicate in the same way. So, you know, there are challenges in an international relationship, but every relationship has challenges.

Hiroko: Yeah. One of the things I learned is that even though we speak the same language, it doesn’t matter English or Japanese, we still have the difference in culture. What I’m trying to say is that even though we mainly speak English and we think we communicate well, because my interpretation or context is based on my culture, there are many cases where we kind of misunderstand each other. We both understand and know the words, but it’s like, well, actually, that’s not what I meant. And he goes, oh, I didn’t know that. And it’s challenging. It’s challenging.

Building Bridges Between Cultures

Jason: Yeah, I mean, that ties in with what we’re going to talk about today. We have a ton to talk about and unpack with the book. But also, I think in the end, this will be really cool to give people a chance, when they’re visiting Japan, perhaps to get a bit closer to the essence of Japan through this conversation. We’ll talk about some of the places you’ve been and the culture and the cultural differences you’re referring to.

I think this is really fascinating, because you and your husband have a company called AltJapan. This is from your website. It exists to, quote, “help build bridges between my culture and the world.” And to me, at least from my research and reading the book and everything, this seems to kind of encapsulate your life’s work in some ways, building that bridge between the cultures. Why is that important to you?

Hiroko: Okay. Well, I have a background in international peace and conflict resolution. I have a master’s degree; I studied that field in the United States. And so, because of that, how to peacefully coexist is always in the back of my mind. And learning a culture, or understanding a different culture, or learning more about the language, is definitely part of the peace process. And also misunderstanding culture. Because culture, especially communication culture, you can’t see it. It’s invisible. And it’s easy to misunderstand each other, and misunderstanding basically escalates the problem, the conflict.

And because I lived in America, America taught me a lot. And I also spent some time in Israel too. I went to school at Bethlehem University in the West Bank, and I went to Hebrew University in Jerusalem for a summer. And that kind of experience really taught me well. And so yes, as you say, it’s my lifetime quest, sort of. And because of that, yes, we founded a company together. I mean, we have to live, but it’s also a big part of it. The reason is that it’s my interest and my personal goal: peaceful coexistence.

From Tokyo to Rural Indiana

Jason: Do you think that the seed for that was planted when you first studied abroad in America? Because what a drastic change that must have been, to go from Tokyo, which is, from my extensive research on Wikipedia, the third largest city in the world, right? I mean, somewhere over 35 million population, to rural Indiana. Can it be any more extreme? Was that where you started getting interested in, wow, everything that I grew up with isn’t exactly translating to this? And trying on maybe parts of a different cultural identity? And the Midwest has its own culture, a subculture within the United States. What did you learn from that experience?

Hiroko: Okay, first of all, I was only, what, 17 years old. So impressionable, you know? I didn’t speak the language at all. I learned English at school, because that’s part of our basic education. But I was always interested in America, and I wanted to learn English. When I was in elementary school, I saw a movie, The NeverEnding Story. Have you ever seen that movie?

Jason: Yeah.

Hiroko: Okay, you should. The NeverEnding Story.

Jason: Yeah, exactly. Everybody knows the song.

Hiroko: And I was like, wow. Hollywood. Ooh, America. And that actually was the turning point, the first step to try to learn English. Anyway, my friend told me there is an organization called Youth For Understanding. That’s an exchange program. And I applied and I got accepted, and I got sent to Indiana. I didn’t have any choice. They set it up for me.

And so yes, there were a lot of learning curves. Simply culture. But yes, it’s a culture shock too. And then, of course, the language. There was no iPhone or anything like that. It’s the 80s. So I always carried a pocketbook dictionary for the pages. And the first word I learned was Brussels sprouts.

Jason: Oh, really?

Hiroko: Yeah, because that was the first dinner that I had. And they told me, like, Hiroko, this is Brussels sprouts. And I practiced the pronunciation and stuff. So there was a lot of stuff that I learned, but I was very busy learning the language. And all the interpretations just came after that. During the year, I was just busy making friends and learning English and trying to understand what was going on surrounding me in classes at school.

Jason: Yeah, that sounds very familiar, coming to Norway. When you don’t speak the language right away, it’s really just a sea of noise. You don’t understand what anybody’s saying. And so learning some of the language, if you’re going to be somewhere for a while, that’s key.

Can You Be Culturally Religious Without Being Religious?

Jason: Let’s bring this into some of the subjects in the book. We have a lot to talk about, and I think a good place to start is on page 57. We’re talking about Japan here. You say, “I wasn’t interested in religion per se. I was interested in how faith can become culture, transforming from divine writ to believers into spiritual traditions for everyone, where it’s practiced with neither belief nor disbelief, but a sort of instinctive balance between the two.”

And then on the next page, and this is where I want to start, because I’m just going to pull a question right from the book, which you asked: “Can one be culturally religious without being religiously religious?” What does that even mean? In some ways, this is the crux of the book. Can you talk about Japan’s relationship with religion, spirituality, but not being religious?

Hiroko: Right. Okay. You mentioned so much stuff. There’s a lot of stuff to unpack. But before I go into that, I’d like to talk about the big picture. There’s an old concept called Yaoyorozu no Kami. Kami means spiritual beings in English. So Yaoyorozu no Kami means 8 million spiritual beings. And 8 million here simply means many, or infinite. It’s not an exact number.

Japanese people in the past, in old times, thought that everything surrounding them had spirits. The sun, the moon, the ground, the wind, trees, the oceans, and even the words they spoke. That concept is pretty much active today. But it doesn’t mean that Japanese people believe that there are spirits surrounding us. No, but we feel the sense of it. It’s our worldview. And the term Yaoyorozu no Kami, 8 million spiritual beings, comes from Shinto. But it’s much bigger than that. It’s the foundation of our culture.

That’s one thing. Another thing I’d like to talk about is the word religion. In Japanese, religion is shukyo. The word shukyo was only coined at the end of the 19th century. It’s a relatively new term. Japan had closed its borders for many years, and then the Black Ships came, and a lot of Western concepts came in and flooded Japan, like banks, the constitution, beef, and religion. So the government people, the Japanese intellectuals, came up with the term shukyo as the translation of religion. And we use shukyo today. But what shukyo means to us is basically the Judeo-Christian worldview, Christianity.

There’s a huge difference between our spirituality and Christianity. As you know, the Judeo-Christian worldview is a hierarchy. The absolute single God, G-O-D, at the top, based on faith, based on belief, and worship. But in the Japanese worldview, it’s 8 million, okay? It’s an infinite number. There are so many. There are even the bad things. We have a kami of plague, a kami of poverty, and even a kami of toothaches. We don’t venerate those bad things, but it’s a quiet reminder that those bad things do exist. So in our worldview, all the kami, or spiritual beings, are equal in existence. And also, kami usually belong to nature. So you don’t believe in trees, you know what I mean? You don’t believe in the ocean.

So every time Westerners make a survey and ask Japanese people, “Are you religious?” or “Which religion do you believe in?”, the vast majority of Japanese people don’t know how to answer. If they’re asked whether they’re religious, it basically means “Do you believe in a single God?” And so inevitably, the answer would be no. And also, as I said, the spirituality is everywhere. It’s hiding in plain sight. It’s not evangelical. It’s never pushy. So it’s everywhere, if you know how to look.

Jason: Yeah. It’s that duality, right? It’s there, but it’s not there. It’s spiritual, but it’s not spiritual. It can be both things. So maybe it’s more nature-based. The kami, K-A-M-I, by the way. You’re like, we don’t have one God, we have 8 million, we have infinite numbers.

Hiroko: But see, that’s not competition, you know what I mean? It’s a fact. We are surrounded by everything.

Kami, Connection, and Gratitude

Jason: Maybe I misspoke before we were recording, because I was saying, hey, I hope the kami of technology is going to help us get through this interview without any issues. But maybe there can’t be a kami of technology.

Hiroko: Yes, absolutely there can. Oh, yeah. Of course. Because even objects. It’s an object. Yeah, definitely. Because, once again, the concept of kami is really a reminder of how we are connected. Of course, you and I know there’s no spirit or soul in a computer, but…

Jason: Don’t say that out loud.

Hiroko: But still, thanks to the computer, the internet, we are talking right now. We are so far away, but we can talk right now. And so that’s the worldview I’m talking about.

I wrote in the book, too, that when I spoke to one Shinto priest about what kami are to him, he said that kami are a space in your heart, and you fill in the space. And he loves the concept of 8 million, infinite, because there’s an infinite number of choices in which you can feel or express gratitude. Even a tiny thing, it doesn’t matter. It reminds us that that kind of sense of gratitude or appreciation for what you have can be a great thing. It’s empowering, especially in hard times.

Jason: Okay, I see. So this is where it ties in with the idea of a way to happiness, right? We talked about kami as a cultural construct, as a belief among Japanese people. But using that as a means of expressing gratitude on a daily basis. Is that one of the things you’re getting at with this book? I’m going to introduce these concepts, but through these concepts, there is a path to daily contentment, daily happiness, in this case perhaps gratitude, to try to sum it up in one word. Is that the right approach to what you were trying to communicate with this book, or am I off base?

A Memoir of Grief and Healing

Hiroko: So the core of the book is that there are so many things that I put in, and that is why I named it 8 Million Ways to Happiness. There’s an infinite number. My book is a mixture of Japanese culture and memoir. It’s my personal journey of re-engaging with Japanese spiritual traditions after my mother’s passing. And so my book isn’t about happiness. It’s more about healing. And in the book, I am the avatar for the readers. It’s about the belief systems as spiritual tools to heal and find my own happiness.

But in a nutshell, yes. If you ask me the foundation of happiness, I think it is gratitude. And if you ask me the nutshell, the core of Japanese spirituality, it’s cultivating positivity in your life, nourishing the sense of belonging to a bigger system like nature, and expressing gratitude for what we have. There are three major belief systems in Japan: Shinto, Buddhism, and Shugendo. And to us, those are kind of spiritual tools. We just take whatever we find useful, without any commitment, and then live.

Shugendo and the Mountain Ascetics

Jason: I love that about the book, like you mentioned, you being the avatar, being able to explore these different elements of spirituality, folklore, whatever, within Japan, and then applying it to your life. This is where the practical stuff comes in. Like you say, you’re essentially curating some of the experiences that can help you with your healing through your mother’s death, which I’m sure must have been difficult for you to write about.

I want to hone in on one of those. Shugendo. The mountain worshippers, the yamabushi, right? Quote, “those who surrender to the mountains.” This is a very physical type of practice. And you also studied the nuance of how to put on a kimono, and certain rituals and things like that. Another sort of physical thing. And one thing that I pulled from this was that an element of your healing seemed to be this idea of partaking in the more physical aspects of the spiritual culture. Can you speak to engaging physically in different things as a means to either healing or happiness or having more gratitude in life, and doing that through this Japanese spiritual lens?

Hiroko: Well, yeah, I agree. I have done a lot of the physical stuff that you mentioned. It’s just because I was curious. I am a curious person. Whenever I feel curious, I just go in and ask or experience or study. I do research. I always have takeaways. I’m learning a lot of stuff, and all the experiences make me grow. That’s spirituality. That’s not a belief. It’s spiritual growing.

And Shugendo, yes. It’s really interesting, because I have been doing a lot of podcasts, and many people ask me about Shugendo. So I guess Shugendo is in right now. I don’t know. But to them, the yamabushi, the practitioners, all the hard physical trainings are just tools. There’s no better or worse among the tools available. It’s just what’s right for them. But I’m not a yamabushi. I totally understand and share the concept, the worldview.

70% of Japan is mountains. It’s basically mountains everywhere. And of course, you can hike the mountains for leisure, but everything is perspective. The world of Shugendo is teaching us that it spreads our realm. That’s one thing. But also, my takeaway was that human beings are not at the top of nature. We’re only part of it. Mountains are not something that you conquer. There are so many things that we human beings depend on the mountains for, on nature for.

Okay, this is something that I’d like to share. Food, okay? Seafood. We don’t really call it seafood. We call it happiness from the sea. And all the vegetables, the radishes or whatever, anything you can harvest from the ground, we call it happiness from the mountains. So you don’t have to be a hardcore yamabushi to understand their worldview. That’s my opinion. It’s coexistence. We are depending on nature. We’re depending on the mountains. But also, we have a responsibility, because the mountains depend on us too. And we can expand that. That’s the global warming kind of thing. If the temperature goes up, we are not going to be able to eat vegetables. And so all of a sudden, that belief system looks like a big thing, but it’s not really a big thing if you start seeing it that way. That is my takeaway from Shugendo.

Jason: Yeah, I became very interested in reading about, I went off on a tangent after I read in your book about Ryojun Shionuma. The guy who did the 1,000 days of training, and he was hiking this 31-mile mountain route with just rice balls and water, repeated like 999 times over a nine-year period, followed by nine days of no food, drink, or sleeping. I mean, it’s just this insane…

Hiroko: Yes, but I didn’t include that in the book. But in his memoir, he said that life outside of the mountains is harder than the training in the mountains. He said that. And also, he didn’t do it so that he could be proud of himself or brag. That’s not the point. He just did it because he thought it was the right thing to do for himself. But still, he said that if he kept everything for himself, that would be the wrong path for him. He wanted to help people. Life is hard. Everybody’s life is hard, always up and down. And if there are some ways that he can help, he’s more than happy to help, even in small ways. I read it, and it made me think a lot. So I guess my interpretation is that experiences are all equal in existence.

Radical Inclusivity

Jason: Can you talk about the radical inclusivity, the Kumano?

Hiroko: That’s a big subject. That’s a big subject.

Jason: What would be the things from that chapter that you would want to communicate to people listening here, that you think would be valuable to them?

Hiroko: I don’t know how to explain this in a short way. But radical inclusiveness. Oh, man, this is hard to say. I keep saying that. Radical inclusiveness isn’t unique to Kumano. It’s a unique characteristic of our spirituality. Like Shinto, for example. Shinto in English means the way of the kami. And “the way” means it’s a lifestyle.

I’d like to go back to the concept of 8 million. There are kami of foreign deities too. They’re kami too. I wrote in my book about the Seven Gods of Happiness, Shichifukujin. Last month was the New Year, so drawings of the Seven Gods of Happiness, Shichifukujin, were everywhere in Japan. They’re seven deities, but each deity has a different background. One is female. One is male. One is elderly. And some are from foreign countries. One is from Taoism, one is from Buddhism. And among the seven, there’s only one with a Japanese background, which is Ebisu, who everybody knows from the Ebisu beer can. Anyway, those different deities are riding on the same boat, smiling. And they are there for only one purpose: to give you fortune and good luck and happiness. That’s radical inclusivity.

Another thing is that I said there are three belief systems: Shinto, Buddhism, and Shugendo. But those boundaries are very blurred. Very, very blurred. So if you come to Japan, you’ll find that Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines are built side by side. Or sometimes you can find a Shinto shrine inside a Buddhist temple. There are other belief systems and religions that exist in Japan too. Christianity. It’s small, only about 1% of Japanese people claim to be Christians, but still, there are other religions too. And all those boundaries are very blurred too. So it’s not really just Kumano. If you talk about radical inclusivity, you can find it anywhere in my country.

How to Visit Shrines and Temples Respectfully

Jason: So for travelers visiting, because you’re going to end up at some of these beautiful shrines and temples. What is your best advice in terms of how to behave? Is it okay to get involved in some way? I know you understand all these nuances. But when you’re just a traveler standing there at this beautiful shrine, and you’re seeing people doing something and you’re not really sure what, what is your best advice?

Hiroko: Okay. It’s very simple. Just very simple. Just be respectful. And if you don’t know what to do, just think: can I do this in my country? Let’s say America, for example. Can I do this inside a church? For example, I’ve noticed that some people are eating or drinking coffee inside Buddhist temples, and watching the monks’ rituals as if they are watching some kind of show. But those are holy grounds. So basically, use your common sense. Don’t talk loud. Don’t talk on the cell phone. Don’t use the holy grounds as a backdrop for your YouTube or something. Because you wouldn’t do that in a synagogue. You don’t do that in a church.

But the thing is, the number of Shinto shrines and Buddhist and Shugendo temples is actually three times more than the number of convenience stores in my country. If you come to Japan, you’ll see how ubiquitous the convenience stores are. So there are basically shrines and temples everywhere. And most of them are open to the public. Anybody can go in, as long as people behave in a respectful manner. Okay. So that’s my advice.

Asakusa: A Textbook Example of Japanese Spirituality

Jason: In terms of places to visit, because you have gone to a lot of far-flung places all over Japan, and we always love good off-the-beaten-path recommendations here. Places where, oh, you’re going to experience something, and there’s not going to be a lot of tourists around, but it’s going to get you closer to the country you’re visiting. Can you share a few places that people could look up after this as potential places to visit, whether it’s for hiking or seeing some of these beautiful temples?

Hiroko: Yeah. Well, if you really want to learn about our culture, Japan, or really enjoy it, I would suggest you go to the major places, the real stuff. For example, Asakusa, or Kyoto, or Meiji Jingu Shrine. The big places. Those are not theme parks. Those are actual holy grounds. And I know there are a lot of people, but that’s part of our culture. Asakusa, for example, is a great example. Have you visited Asakusa?

Jason: No, I’ve only been to Japan once. I had a handful of days in Tokyo, and I’m dying to come back.

Hiroko: Okay. Next time you should go to Asakusa, okay? It’s major, major, but it’s a textbook example of Japanese spirituality. It starts with a huge red Buddhist gate with a big lantern. You go in, and then there’s a shopping street. It’s holy ground, but it’s a shopping street, and they sell a whole bunch of stuff, like sweets, souvenirs, kimono, you name it. And that’s because in Japanese spirituality, prayer and play are very intertwined. Playfulness is one of the major characteristics. In the West, playfulness is probably seen as not so religious. But in Japan, we don’t see it that way, because it makes you smile. And it’s not a recent thing. It’s been like this for many, many years.

Then you go through another gate, with another huge lantern. Once you go in, that’s the actual religious ground. So before you go through, you put your food away, because it’s holy ground. You go in and see how the people pray, that kind of stuff. But the thing is, Asakusa is a temple, but there is a Shinto shrine right next to it. So the kami and the deities reside peacefully side by side. And on the temple grounds, there are many small shrines. So the temple isn’t just venerating only one deity. There are many deities around. And that’s 8 million.

So there are a whole bunch of people there. Okay, a whole bunch of people there. Japanese, of course, and many people from different countries. And I’m from Tokyo, right? I know Asakusa very well, but I go there a lot too, because I always learn something new. So that’s my advice. Just go to the major places, because those places can accommodate a lot of people.

Jason: Can you spell the name of the place, just for people listening?

Hiroko: Asakusa is A-S-A-K-U-S-A.

Jason: Okay, great. I just wanted to make sure people had that, so it’s something they could check out.

Happiness Is Perspective

Jason: I wouldn’t say that the World Happiness Report, for example, like all of these reports, it’s hard to just generalize happiness as a concept. But they do have a methodology and things like that. And I was looking it up, and I know in 2025, the previous year, Japan ranked 55th, which is one of the lowest positions among the G7 nations. And I’m just wondering, how do you reconcile something like that with the subject matter in the book? What are your thoughts?

Hiroko: Yeah. So I said this in my book too. I cannot give the answers to social problems, or anybody’s problems. But I wrote the book because there are many ways, 8 million ways, infinite ways, to find your own path. And happiness is perspective. There are many different kinds of happiness for many different people.

For my book, I interviewed a 107-year-old master of calligraphy.

Jason: Wow. Cool.

Hiroko: 107, okay? She is my hero. Anyway, she said, yeah, happiness is perspective. To her, working on calligraphy every single day was her happiness. But for people who hate calligraphy, it’s not happiness. It’s hell. So somebody’s happy place can be somebody else’s hell. So it’s perspective.

But I think the amount of goodness that you can have depends on how much you can notice surrounding you. And then just take it as a tool and work with your hardship. And of course, it’s not easy. I wish I could say it’s easy, but I can’t, because it wasn’t easy for me. And every day I have problems, the hard stuff, and it’s not easy. But still, we can move on. I think that goes back to finding something that I can appreciate in daily life. It’s really helpful.

In my book, my parents’ death was my hardship. Happiness and grief, appreciation and grief, look like they’re at totally opposite ends. But I learned they can be together. Grief or hardship can open different doors. That’s what I learned. And life is hard. There’s so much sad news, and it’s really hard. It’s very hard. Whenever I hit difficulties, I keep telling myself there is some good stuff too. Today, my tiny camellia flower bloomed. That’s pretty. That’s happy too.

Jason: Yeah. And having the awareness to see that and acknowledge it and appreciate it, that leads to happiness, the mindfulness aspect.

Misconceptions About Tokyo

Jason: I know we’re coming towards the end here, but if anybody’s traveling through Japan, they’re going to find themselves in Tokyo at some point, and this is your hometown. So we have to ask you, first of all, what are some of the biggest misconceptions about Tokyo, do you think? And what are a few of the experiences where you’re like, well, if you’re here, you’ve got to go do these things?

Hiroko: Okay. Misconceptions. Yeah. I think a lot of people think that Tokyo is a high-tech, cyberpunk city. I get it. Bullet trains, the trains all on time.

Jason: All the lights.

Hiroko: Yeah, and skyscrapers. I totally understand. But that stuff is built on a great amount of history, culture, and spirituality. For example, the number of temples and shrines is way more than convenience stores. But also, spirituality is actually a key to understanding what Japanese people love: cleanliness, manners, the words we speak, food, craftsmanship, or even pop culture, like anime and manga. So when you come to Tokyo, just explore it. Just follow your interest and explore it. And when you’re in a public place or on holy ground, please respect our culture. There’s a social grace here. There’s social etiquette here. So just please follow it, and then you can enjoy it fully.

Jason: That’s great advice. We’ll link up to 8 Million Ways to Happiness, of course. Where do you want people to go to find your work? Is there anywhere specific?

Hiroko: Yes, I have a newsletter. The blog, blog.hirokoyoda.com. So please just stop by and say hi.

Jason: Sounds great. Do you have any other words of wisdom you want to leave everybody with as we come out of this one?

Hiroko: Wisdom! Wisdom! Well, I mean…

Jason: I’ll leave it open. It doesn’t necessarily have to be words of wisdom. Perhaps that’s too much pressure.

Hiroko: I would say just smile.

Jason: That’s good. Well, we’ll send you off on your day with a smile. Thank you so much, Hiroko. I totally appreciate your time.

Hiroko: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Both Things Can Be True

Jason: There you have it. Thank you to Hiroko Yoda for stopping by the show. The book, once again, is 8 Million Ways to Happiness. We’ll link up to everything in the show notes.

And if you recall, at the top of the show I mentioned a parenting concept I heard about that really helps me, not just with parenting, but in life. I think this can help any individual, either internally or when dealing with a situation. And it ties in with this concept of duality. That’s what made me think of it. It’s this idea that both things can be true.

So if my son doesn’t want to eat his vegetables or whatever, we’re trying to get him to eat some, because we’re like, well, buddy, you have to eat at least a few of those carrots. We can’t have dessert without eating a few of those carrots. “Oh, but I hate them.” Well, both things can be true. You can hate it, but you can also still have to eat it.

That can be true with anything in life, I think. You can feel two different things at the same time, and that’s okay. I think we get stuck in the mindset sometimes, or at least I know I do, where it has to be one thing or the other. And so I’d like to come back to that. Both things can be true. You can be super annoyed, and you can also love the person. You know this if you’re in a relationship. You’ve probably felt that before. And it’s just a bit of a mindset shift, I would say. We know that intellectually, but when you really embrace the idea that both things can be true, and you can hold both those things together at the same time, for me, it just gives me a more peaceful feeling, a bit of balance, a bit of understanding. It doesn’t have to be one way or the other. Both things can be true in any given situation, and that’s okay. And then you just kind of sit with that and move on. Food for thought I wanted to share here coming out of this one. And I’ve got a great quote to leave you with as well in a moment.

Ryojun Shionuma and the Inner Child

Jason: First, I just wanted to tell one more story, if you will indulge me. I got fascinated with this guy. You heard me mention him during the interview. Again, he wasn’t in the book, but his name is Ryojun Shionuma. He completed this 1,000-day trek on Japan’s Mount Omine, not sure if I’m pronouncing that correctly, where he was hiking around 30 miles a day. And it took him nine years. He was doing it during the hiking season until he could hit a thousand days total. And to add another layer to this, according to tradition, if you quit or you fail to complete a day, apparently you have to take your own life. Which, I don’t know, I can’t speak to that. I don’t know how committed he was to that, but I’m assuming if he’s doing these thousand days that he was committed in that way as well, which is insane. I’m trying to get an interview with this guy. I don’t think he speaks English, but I’ll let you know.

Anyway, I found this talk with him, and it was a short clip, and he said a nice little thing that kind of lit me up and gave me something else to carry with me throughout the day, and perhaps something to come back to again and again. It was this idea that his inner child is always running and always playing. He was talking about how he used to get nervous speaking in front of all these people, but then he thinks about his inner child just running and playing. Or when traveling is tough, he was talking about being on the bullet train to this talk, and his inner child is just running and playing. So this idea of playfulness. Your inner child running and playing, and that fueling your happiness, and going back to that as a way to think about things, which is what he said. This is how I’m thinking about things. I just thought that was pretty powerful, and I wanted to leave you with that as well.

Two last housekeeping things. ZeroToTravel.com/newsletter. If you want little musings like this, you can get those off the pod there for free. And we are now part of the Airwave Media podcast network. They’ve got some other great shows as well. You can check them out at AirwaveMedia.com.

Now, I’ll leave you with this quote from Millard Fuller, who said, “It is easier to act yourself into a new way of thinking than it is to think yourself into a new way of acting.” Thanks for listening. I’ll see you next time. Peace and love to you and yours. Cheers.